Speaker 1: 0:00

So Steve is back today. Steve was invited back for the fourth go round. I believe what did you promise, dunkin Donuts?

Speaker 2: 0:06

You promised LaCroix, not Pumplemousse LaCroix.

Speaker 1: 0:10

Not Pumplemousse. What flavor would you bring?

Speaker 2: 0:12

Look, the lemon chello is pretty bomb and then, but if you jump into like the bubbly category, like they've got some pretty banging flavors.

Speaker 1: 0:18

Oh yeah, I like the bubbly. Yeah, I'm a fan of American sparkling water.

Speaker 2: 0:21

Sparkling water, yeah, that works pretty well.

Speaker 1: 0:24

Do you do not have sparkling water in Australia?

Speaker 2: 0:27

We do, but just not at the quality or the quantity of options.

Speaker 1: 0:32

Yeah, Like the sparkling sand pellegrino.

Speaker 2: 0:35

Yeah, you might be able to get some of that. For sure, you might have, like the supermarket, no name, like Kirkland brand sparkling water and that's about it.

Speaker 1: 0:43

You've got the Kirkland over there.

Speaker 2: 0:45

We've got Costco Like thank you for that, oh you've got Costco Okay. Costco hot dogs Cool.

Speaker 1: 0:51

Cool, I really enjoyed. We just went off to the races on something else we are going to talk about, so we let's talk about sparkling water for an hour we have been. What we have been doing on our previous adventures was really looking at the things that are not working so well, that are maybe a little manipulative, that are maybe a little underhanded, but they're being very commonly taught and it's just being regurgitated and disseminated down and down and down and down, and I find those tactics are not working super well for people anymore.

Speaker 1: 1:24

They're not, and so what we have done which at this point should be by the time this gets released will have all been revealed. So we've got our own little project that we're working on, called service driven scaling, and that's specifically designed to help people who maybe are starting to get the sense that, like, the things that they were doing are not working as well, so they've been plateaued or maybe even sales have declined for three months or more, and are starting to think like this doesn't feel good anymore, it doesn't feel aligned, it doesn't feel in integrity with personal values and things like that.

Speaker 2: 1:57

Yeah, there's that taste, there's that tasting, that little thought in the back of your mind when you go to sleep, sort of like am I operating in the best version, or in integrity, or you know, insert your cool term here, but it's just not feeling. There's something wrong.

Speaker 1: 2:14

It's. I mean, the concept is service driven, like if you are a person that one of your top values and what you offer in your business and the way that you want to serve people is through service. If you actually want to deliver on the outcomes and you're finding that your sales have plateaued or declined, like that's what we're doing. We want to help and sorry, did I cut you off?

Speaker 2: 2:37

Look, we do that a bit because we're just so excited to share the knowledge. But if you look at where we went last time, like that's a perfect example of someone who is providing service to people, but the reason behind why they're providing the service is not congruent with what's actually being provided, because what we hope and I know that these people exist out there because they're doing the right thing they're just not. They just don't know who to turn to, because they're turning to people who are teaching them the wrong thing. Inherently, if you're a service provider, if you're wanting to impart your knowledge or coach people or give them your expertise, you want to do that first and foremost, like you want your students to succeed. But what we're finding is that the disconnect is you say you want to do that, you're promising that you're going to do that, and then all you're doing is just like taking their money and disappearing, or taking their money multiple times and not delivering on the outcome that you've sort of said that you're going to. That's problem, massive problem, it's a big problem.

Speaker 1: 3:34

And I'm going to. I feel like no one. I like to operate on the assumption that no one wakes up in the morning and thinks about how they can ruin someone's life.

Speaker 2: 3:45

That'd be nice.

Speaker 1: 3:46

That'd be something that we're going to operate, under the assumption that you aren't waking up in the morning and saying like I wonder how I could sell someone something and then totally fleece them out of that money by not delivering what I said that I could do to help them.

Speaker 2: 4:03

Yeah, we'd hope that that was the case.

Speaker 2: 4:05

But, unfortunately, there are people that wake up that are still trying this game. What's good, though, is that, as they're trying it, the sophistication or the level of awareness of the buyer is starting to increase to a point where it's not working. So that would be why people who have been taught these sort of tactics but it's not sitting well with them. They would be noticing a downturn in their sales, or the techniques that they're using aren't working as well as they used to. These are the people that need to hear some of the stuff that we're going to be talking about.

Speaker 1: 4:34

Yeah, so we have four primary pillars, let's call them we haven't totally fully defined the way that we would say this but four pillars that we're focusing on, marketing and messaging being one of them, selling being one of them selling events, the event, the actual event is the way that you're selling, the vehicle in which actually gives you the sale, and then the curriculum and the delivery.

Speaker 2: 5:04

That's it, the delivery of fulfillment. Yeah for sure.

Speaker 1: 5:06

Yeah, and it really combines our expertise in a really cool way. But what we want to talk about today is metrics around those things. We've talked about data. We love data. We're both data.

Speaker 2: 5:21

I'm a closet data guy, right, so.

Speaker 1: 5:23

I didn't know what data driven I was.

Speaker 2: 5:25

Yeah, for years I was like I'm all about the creativity and the vibe and this and data and quant and analysis and math. But then as I've got older, I've like realized I'm a closet math lover.

Speaker 1: 5:40

I've never been the closet math person.

Speaker 2: 5:42

You just loved it for loved it forever.

Speaker 1: 5:44

I think I've got a.

Speaker 2: 5:46

I've got a sister-in-law who is a. She's a beautiful human and she's a math teacher.

Speaker 1: 5:51

But in Australia we don't.

Speaker 2: 5:52

we put S on the end of math. So there's there's some things that I like about the US. There's some things that are a little bit too interesting for me to get involved in, but what I do love is I love the word math as opposed to maths.

Speaker 1: 6:04

So I come back.

Speaker 2: 6:05

I come back from my time in the US and I start saying to Sarah hey, sarah, I love math. And she's like it's maths, maths.

Speaker 1: 6:12

I don't know I just like it.

Speaker 2: 6:13

I just I just really like it. I like using the word math. But anyway, she would be my go-to, where I'd be like, oh, hey, I texted her. Hey, Sarah, like how do I work out like the percentage of this number? And she'd be like, oh, it's cool, Like that's like fifth grade sort of math, but here it is Like this is the equation that you need to Clearly you've forgotten a few things.

Speaker 2: 6:32

I'll tell you math, math anxiety is a real thing. So during your, during your formative years, like probably primary school and whatever primary school is for you, like your first grade through to sixth, if you have a bad math teacher experience, it creates like a real challenge for you in high school to be, you know, accepting and not fearful of math. And then if you don't fix that in high school, you go into adult life thinking that math is difficult and it can't be useful and you suck at it and it's never going to be any good. So, yeah, I think for me, I had to come back in love with it.

Speaker 2: 7:04

And then it wasn't until I made it useful to me in real life that my love for mathematics became true and I realized it wasn't. It wasn't that difficult, after all. I just needed to make it make sense in the stuff that I understood and was interested in and then boom off to the races.

Speaker 1: 7:21

I think what I first of all like if I'm having a sort of a chaotic day and I need to just like chill out, I'll go do Sudoku oh dang, oh, there's some insight. There's some insight Like a, like an expert level, like where the grid is like 24 by 24, like a really wildly difficult Sudoku, where it's not just numbers, it's now letters also incorporated, like it just it zends me out, like it's just so relaxing. There's something about numbers that are they don't lie, like they don't.

Speaker 2: 7:58

Yeah, there's no gray. It's not a gray area, is it?

Speaker 1: 8:01

It's not no, and I think that's. I like puzzles, clearly. If I like Sudoku, I really like puzzles and I think that when I was a kid I realized I was really good at math, so I learned we have a thing called Montessori. Do you have Montessori there?

Speaker 2: 8:14

Yeah, that's the thing, yep.

Speaker 1: 8:15

That's the thing, and so I was in Montessori from the time I was two and Montessori I don't know if this is a principle or if it was just the school that I went to we learned essentially how to multiply and divide it when I was in preschool. So when I went into public school, when I was in first grade or whatever, I was so bored yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:37

Because I already knew how to do everything. It's a whole. It's a whole story. But I think that's I've always really loved, because first of all, it was presented to me not as like a foreign. It was more like a little puzzle that they gave us and we used little beads and moved things around. It was fun. I don't I distinctly remember it. I loved it and it's just always been a. I'm also a. When I'm good at something, I will ride that wave.

Speaker 2: 9:04

You have to right and it's just yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:06

If I'm not good at something, I just walk away from it, I quit. I don't give it much time.

Speaker 2: 9:12

So here's the math, here's the data, and that's what we're talking about today.

Speaker 1: 9:16

We're talking about? Yeah, we've got to get to this, so we're going to talk about data. Listen, you know what you're signing up for when you talk to me. Good, so we're going to talk about some, some data, specifically around external versus internal metrics, and the reason I wanted to talk about this when I presented this to you, I said I think we should talk about internal versus external metrics is and if you're like, what is that?

Speaker 1: 9:44

When I say internal metrics, I mean the things that are happening inside of your business, where you're tracking them to see what is specifically what is happening with the way you're delivering your programs or the results that you're getting. How well are you retaining clients all that good stuff versus an external metric, which is how are you converting? What's your marketing look like? What do your sales processes look like? What's that? And more people are tracking the external metrics than the internal and at some point, I think that's you are missing. You're missing a key opportunity to do better for your people when you are placing higher value on your external metrics than you are your internal.

Speaker 2: 10:27

Yeah, yeah. And is another way that, like help me because you're the master of. You're the master of, I would argue, both, you've got your feet in both camps, whereas I am specifically in one side of this equation, which is the inside, the business metrics, or in our four pillars it's sort of the event, the delivery of the event and the fulfillment of the offering or the delivery of the outcomes in the curriculum. So yeah, for me, my understanding of it would be like bums on seats. Metrics would be the external, like how you get people into your stuff to be able to deliver your expertise and then keeping your bums on the seats for as long as possible. Lifetime client value would be the inside, the 10 metrics, and the way that I would, the area that I love and claim.

Speaker 1: 11:18

Okay, so we're going to get into this.

Speaker 2: 11:19

Cool. How did I do it? I do okay with that little my understanding of things. Am I on the right track? Yeah, Cool.

Speaker 1: 11:28

I think we know each other well enough by now that, if I would, I wouldn't.

Speaker 2: 11:33

I wouldn't nothing if I got it wrong, but I think it's important. I think it's important for our unique styles because we approach things differently, even though I'm a closet data lover and a later in life lover of data, so I know that there's people out there that would be listening to it going data gross. So I've got to then make sure that I still stay true to my my peeps by framing it in a cool way like bombs on seats, bombs on seats and keeping them there.

Speaker 1: 12:02

My spin on data is that data is actually an offshoot of mindset. No one talks about it that way. Yeah, mind blowing it's a little when you think about it. But the reason I say I won't stay too long on this is the reason I consider data to be an offshoot of mindset is because it is so easy to let your mind just go to worst case scenario and everything is doomsday and everything's on fire and the building is burning and when it's not like. If you understand how to look at the numbers, it's so much easier to take an objective look at what's actually happening versus just like what your body interprets is happening and that is fire, fire, fire, disaster, disaster, disaster, when it's not actually the case. So it helps keep you neutral, which is that's not like that.

Speaker 1: 12:57

For me, that's the goal of mindset. It's like you wanna keep everything neutral and it helps you stay in that place of like not ever it's not on fire. In fact, there's probably a really good chance that it's doing so much better than you realize. You just don't have the volume yet that you want. That's really it.

Speaker 1: 13:16

So, let's get into it. So let's start with, because I think the bulk of the I'm going to make an assumption. I don't like making too many assumptions here, but I'm gonna make the assumption that people watching this have some semblance of their external metrics, even if it's more into an intuitive sense of what's happening with their external metrics. So again, what's happening with sales? What's happening with marketing? You have you know what your audience size is. That's a given. You understand how many people on your social media, how many people on your email list, if any, whatever, you might understand what your conversion rates are. You might understand what it costs you to acquire a lead. We can get into some of that. But I wanna start with internal, because I don't hear people talk about this too much.

Speaker 2: 14:06

It's because they're not vanity, like they're not vanity metrics.

Speaker 2: 14:10

I always say that vanity metrics are like the super models. They're the super models of the metric world and they're good from far, but far from good. So it's like you see something. You see something Now I'll just keep it neutral, right. You see it in attractive human in the distance and you're like whoa, that's real, that person's really, that's really cute. I've been treated like whoa. And then your brain starts to fill in the rest of the gaps. Whatever that is for you, cool, but populate it with. You've seen in the distance. But then as you get closer or as you drive in past, they turn around and say whoa, that's not what I thought it was and that's very lame. And that's why I prefaced this by saying these are vanity metrics, because good from far. You look in the distance whoa, that's really attractive. So look in the distance. I got a thousand registrations to my online course or a thousand buyers. Vanity, good from far. But then you look under the 10, 3% industry completion rate 3% mate 3% of 1,000. How many is that math legend?

Speaker 1: 15:12

3% of 1,000 is 0.3%.

Speaker 2: 15:18

How many people?

Speaker 1: 15:20

Wait a second. What were the?

Speaker 2: 15:22

Freezy, edit this out quick edit.

Speaker 1: 15:25

That's Mackenzie Freezy's the copywriter. You said three people out of a thousand.

Speaker 2: 15:31

What's 3% of a thousand?

Speaker 1: 15:32

Oh, 3% of a thousand is. I thought you said three people out of a thousand.

Speaker 2: 15:37

My apologies. So 3% of a thousand? What is it, math genius? 30. 30 people, so 30 people. You've got this supermodel metric. That's good from far, this beautiful thing on the horizon. 1,000 people have bought your course, but then my question how many people finished it? And the industry standard for online courses that are self-directed, for example? 3%. So 30 people out of 1,000 have finished your course. Now some people will celebrate that the bro marketers will be like hell yeah you got your money from a thousand people Awesome.

Speaker 2: 16:13

But there are 970 humans that have paid you money that will never pay you a single cent again as long as you live, until you open up as a different type of coach with a different type of cereal box certification, following the bro method, right. But that's really alarming, right? Really alarming is that people tolerate that and people think that that's acceptable. What's acceptable for me and for my clients is upwards of 80 to 90% completion rate, but I would even argue that why are people not like? Why is one person out of 1,000 not completing that program? What's wrong with your curriculum and what's wrong with your content program systems that's making that happen?

Speaker 2: 16:56

Now, of course, you've got to put down the human motivation and whether people are actually interested in what you've got to offer. But you have to take ownership of this. If you're getting people to give you money, they're giving it to you for a reason. You've got to assume that they're motivated and interested and your program has to do the best job possible to make that happen. And so this is where it's more than just completion rate. That are the metrics that you need to look at, because I know what you're gonna say hey, there's gonna be people that aren't gonna complete the program.

Speaker 2: 17:27

There's gonna be people that aren't gonna do it. Yeah, I agree with you absolutely, but I think, for our people, if you just go on the fact that 3% is the average, like the industry standard, for people completing self-directed online courses and stop there, no good. What are the other things within your program that you can look at that will be telltale signs, that will have the direct impact to that 3% completion rate? These are the things that I wanna go into.

Speaker 1: 17:52

Can I ask a question before that? Yeah, can we look like what's the spectrum? So if 3% is industry standard, I would argue that even if you're at 10%, so if you're 3x above industry standard, that's still not great. 3%, 10% completion rate we're not doing so great. Still, where would you put the spectrum of?

Speaker 2: 18:18

Yeah, that's a good thing, right? So we've got us up here where we play in this higher realm, the 70, 80, 90% realm. That's where we wanna ideally get people to. But you have to burn some of the external metrics and sometimes you have to light the whole fricking thing on fire, because what you're doing is you then wanna make sure you're getting people who are gonna complete the program, so you have to rule out the unmotivated in your sales process to get those higher numbers. But then in the self-directed like standard you would be looking at anywhere from 20 to 40% completion rate. That would be a really good self-directed program that doesn't try and solve the fact that you're gonna get people who just aren't motivated.

Speaker 1: 19:05

Okay, yeah, but there's a big difference between 40 and 70. Yeah, 40 and 70. So 40 and 70, is that like? Is that a good target? Is that a decent target?

Speaker 2: 19:21

I think for people to start, like if you know the number, like you should know the number, you just go into it, like if we're talking about courses, right, there's a whole bunch of curriculum. So the word curriculum shouldn't just mean your courses, your modules, your topics. It could mean your masterclass, it could mean your challenge, it could mean your workshop, it could mean anything. But for the purpose of right now we'll talk about a course, you could go into your course platform, your teachable, your kajabi, your podia, your whatever, and you could run a report that just shows how many people have completed the program.

Speaker 2: 19:52

Number of like total learners all time, number of completions, and then you've got your two numbers that you need to make your percentage. Yeah, yeah, so you could do that and people would probably find that they're probably sitting, maybe around I think people that are aware of this and care they're probably sitting well north of the 3% industry average, right, they're probably sitting in the. They're probably sitting in the 20 to 30%. I would say in what I've seen, I also want to be very calm.

Speaker 1: 20:22

This is a question that goes a bit off the rails, but if people are listening to this and they're going math, why should someone care?

Speaker 2: 20:30

Yeah, I think, ultimately, listening to us on this, yeah, I think ultimately, even though it's numbers, those numbers really relate to, especially in this side, they relate to whether they're going to buy something from you again.

Speaker 1: 20:46

There it is.

Speaker 2: 20:47

They're going to relate to these numbers. The higher these numbers are inside the tent for you, the more existing business you're going to be able to generate from your existing clients. So it's and then the stats on that like the cost to acquire a new customer versus the cost to get an existing customer to buy something. It's so much cheaper for you to do that right, and you could even argue that it doesn't cost any money to get your existing customers to buy anything from you If you've got that raving fan generated stuff happening. And that's what that metric, that's what the completion rate metric, as well as a whole bunch of other ones. So it's not just like it's cool that they finish, but there's a whole bunch of other ones that will give you the tell as to their likelihood of buying something again. But getting that one as high as possible out of the gate will absolutely exponentially increase your likelihood of them repeat purchasing. That's why you should care for sure.

Speaker 1: 21:40

Because can we tell a little bit of, can we tell a little bit more of a story with some of this data? If someone is only completing 10, 20% of the portion.

Speaker 2: 21:53

That's a different metric, for sure. So we've talked about like overall completion rate. So that is the number of people that have enrolled in your program. How many of them have got to the end of it as a percentage. Now what you're saying is, the story is that we're able to net it's real into that and go well, at what point in the program are people stopping? So now you. So this is another way to overlay that data. So I'll let you continue with your question, for sure.

Speaker 1: 22:21

Well, I mean, I'm just like if someone came to you and said I really need help, like I need help redesigning my curriculum or tweaking it or doing something, I'm finding that people are dropping off. Maybe they'd know where that's happening, maybe they don't, but only 15% of people who start this course are finishing it. First of all, does the price point matter? Is the price point going to come into play and set like what would you start looking at? What would be the story that you would start looking at out of knowing that that's the number?

Speaker 2: 22:56

Yeah, for sure. I think price point does play a. I think price point does play a part in it.

Speaker 1: 23:02

I would agree.

Speaker 2: 23:03

But more expensive programs and program length and duration are not correlated positively in my opinion.

Speaker 1: 23:11

So I don't believe you explain what that means.

Speaker 2: 23:13

Yeah, for sure, I'm trying to use cool, sexy math language, but that's like I'll get to. Let me put it in Steve's language If I pay $1,000, I don't need a thousand hours of course content. If I pay $100, I don't need 10 hours. It's not correlated like that. You could give me like one of the most effective programs I bought was four figures high four figures and it was less than an hour's worth of content, but the outcome that I got was fricking awesome.

Speaker 1: 23:40

Okay.

Speaker 2: 23:41

So happy days, right, whereas what I see a lot, a lot of people is they're going oh well, you're giving me a $97 program that's got 40 hours of content. No one's going to complete it yeah, no one. So that's a curriculum problem straight out of the gate. But what would I look at first? First thing I'd look at is I'd look at your course completion feedback. So people that have completed the program, what are they said?

Speaker 2: 24:04

So if you don't have that system in place, you need to put that system in place real quick. Because that's going to be my first place that I look at, right, what are people saying who have gone through the program, and I'd be looking at whether or not they believe that what you said in your external stuff, in your marketing, what you said and what you promised was going to happen, whether it happened for them or not. Then I'd be looking at things about like you have other questions about, like the format, the delivery style, the length, duration, content, resources, et cetera. So I'd just look at what people are saying at a high level, and then I'd just go and run a report and go what are people completing? And what you'll see is you'll have, in most of the times, your number of people who haven't even logged into the system that your course is hosted on that will be one of your biggest numbers and that's a big problem. So you'll have a whole bunch of people who buy it and don't even log in. That's a problem.

Speaker 1: 24:56

What's the problem there? For you, it's disgusting.

Speaker 2: 24:59

How can you sell something that people don't even have access to.

Speaker 1: 25:03

How do you control?

Speaker 2: 25:03

that, though you can't control it, but you can do a lot to influence it.

Speaker 1: 25:09

I think that's the thing, that Okay, so how do you mitigate that?

Speaker 2: 25:14

Great question. I love this because you're asking. Of course, this is just my opinion and this is just my professional perspective over 15 years of doing this and understanding this intimately.

Speaker 1: 25:25

But yeah, you're right.

Speaker 2: 25:26

How do you control it? You can't control it. You can't If someone buy it. I just come from this world of optimism where, if I'm buying something that I'm interested in that's promised me an outcome, I'm going to want to access it.

Speaker 2: 25:36

But if I haven't logged in, maybe it's because it's too bloody hard, or maybe your email that you sent went to spam and I didn't even get it. At least give me a chance. How do I mitigate it? Well, what I would do is most of these course platforms have the ability to run conditional triggers. So if I haven't logged in after one or two days, send an email. If I haven't logged in for a week, send me an email. If I haven't logged in for a month, send me an email. Send me a text message, send me a Facebook message, give me a freaking call.

Speaker 2: 26:07

But people who have gone into this with the intention of oh, I'm just going to get as many people into the front end of this offer as I can and then not worry about them, you're never going to make that call, You're never going to check in on them, because you're worried that they're not going to come in and realize that your program is just a show about nothing. So if you believe in what you offer, if you've genuinely invested time in something that's valuable, that's grounded in outcome and transformation, you'll have no problem picking up the phone. Hey Adrian, I noticed that you bought our program a little while ago, but you haven't logged in yet. Did you get your login details? Oh, dude, whoa, wow. They'll be shocked, because no one ever freaking calls them for a month.

Speaker 1: 26:45

I never Right and it's like oh dude, I've just been really busy, sorry.

Speaker 2: 26:49

Hey, would it be cool if I just sent you your login details and you just checked your email while I've got you? Yep, you've got them. Fantastic, jump in when you can and our system set up so that, once you log in, you'll get some communication from us to keep you on your way, cool. So yeah, that's how I would mitigate it.

Speaker 1: 27:04

But at what price point?

Speaker 2: 27:06

Effort dude, come on Really like in a perfect Steve optimistic world with the systems and the tools that we have in place today, any price point.

Speaker 1: 27:17

Someone's paid $47. You're going to follow up asking why they haven't logged in. Dude, I've got the template.

Speaker 2: 27:23

I've got the automation template that I could just plug into their system to do it. But it's like again, it's effort, it's effort for people and it comes back to. Would I do that for a $47 product? I wouldn't do it personally. I would put it through the automation. Yeah, but you can still be personal there by sending in your email, personal there by having multiple touch points, and you could also then run a report on okay, now you've got.

Speaker 2: 27:52

So what I hope people are starting to see is that we've gone from one metric, which is completion rates overall, to now we've gone login rates, login numbers from total, so total people that purchased, how many of them have actually logged in in the last in so period of time. But then if I've got then a communication log that I've got, I can run reports on that automation to see how many people that I've reached out to have responded and then logged in. And if after a month of reaching out to someone they've not responded to anything, that might be someone I call or one of my team reaches out to personally. You could do that. But the question is, how much do you care and how much do you value the future lifetime value of you doing that for that person, because you may still call them and they may still go.

Speaker 2: 28:41

Yeah, I'm not interested anymore. Bro, give me a refund actually. Yeah, you had a 30 day refund Actually. Yeah, I don't. I changed my mind. I don't want it, right. That could be the worst case scenario, but again, no one's. No one's doing it to that level, no way.

Speaker 1: 28:55

Would you say so if someone's like I just started my business? I'm trying to figure this out Like can we give them some grace on some of this?

Speaker 2: 29:04

100,000%, but they'll shout not. They'll shout not. Stick your head in the sand and imagine that this does. There it is.

Speaker 2: 29:11

So I would say I would say, in order to mitigate this, you're not going to do a full, detailed, a failed to log in automation, but what you will do is you will have a nurture sequence that is built in post purchase and that that nurture sequence can be as simple as I get a welcome email and then two days later I get a check in email that says hey, it's been a couple of days, how are you going? You got any questions? Join our Facebook group, do something Like keep the conversation going for at least the first week or two, so that, yeah, that's non-negotiable, I think.

Speaker 1: 29:42

And I. Having software that will do that, having some type of tech that will do that, usually is going to cost you a little bit more money. I would argue, like, once you start making any kind of money, it's that that that should just be a cost of doing business. Yeah, absolutely, to have some type of capability of getting that done. And if you've got a fiver it. If you're like I have no idea how to do those automations, I have no idea what automation even means, how do you set any of that up? It will not. If you, as long as you can write the emails, you can give them to someone and for pretty cheap, for very little money, you can. You can hire someone to plug it and once it's done, it's done, very, very worth the investment.

Speaker 2: 30:28

Super important, for sure.

Speaker 1: 30:30

Yeah, okay, anything else before we move on from that? Anything, oh yeah, and like so so I'd be looking at, looking at login, login rates.

Speaker 2: 30:38

So that's where I start.

Speaker 2: 30:39

And then I'd go all right, I would just run a topic by topic report completion and I'd look for, I'd look for the place where it's like and it's it's most of the time it's like this awesome, awesome, awesome crickets.

Speaker 2: 30:53

There'll be, there'll be a, there'll be a cliff moment where the, the engagement rate, just falls off a cliff, yes, and then there'll be the completion rate of the of the topics. Now, disclaimer, your system, your system has to have a way of defining the completion of a of a topic, right? So you know, in the real world for us, like the corporate learning world, we would lock a video down so that you can't continue, you can't press the continue button, which is also the trigger for complete, unless the whole video is completed. Now, if you don't have that and it's just like, I can manually click complete, cool. But now the reliability and validity of the data, which is equally as important as having the data in in the first place, is now starting to be questionable. So if you come in and start analyzing oh, I'm analyzing topic completion based on whether or not they watched the whole video or not, that is very different to whether or not, they can just press complete and it's completed without watching the video.

Speaker 1: 31:56

I got to say, though, from a user perspective, if I oh, that's, that's a whole different story.

Speaker 2: 32:02

Yeah, that'd annoy you if you, if you had it locked and you couldn't, you couldn't progress.

Speaker 1: 32:08

I would. I would want to punch somebody in the face Like I wouldn't, I wouldn't go any further because it would actively aggravate me so badly.

Speaker 2: 32:16

Now you've raised something that's going to be I need to say it off the data. It's off the data thing, but locking content down is keep your pitchforks down, folks.

Speaker 1: 32:29

Okay, okay.

Speaker 2: 32:31

I wish more people did it.

Speaker 1: 32:33

Okay.

Speaker 2: 32:35

Because if you're the expert, feel the expert of a topic right, and you've built a program that's sequential topic one, then topic two, then topic three, then topic four. If you let me free range chicken around the farm and go to topic five without completing topic one, I don't know. I don't know if that's really like that's. That's that's giving you a way to sort of cheat the system and short cut and not acquire the knowledge that you need in the order that you're paying me, the expert, to give it to you. But it does take a way of framing and a way of positioning the content in the marketing, but also when you're onboarding, to then make locking content down palatable.

Speaker 2: 33:16

I really believe that it's an. That's the unsung hero in the in the self directed education space. But again, it's always this trade off between desire to do it for the greater good of my clients versus the effort required to actually sit there and spin it up. Now, that is the ultimate justification for why you should hang out with agencies like ours. But the effort issue is the reason why people don't want to spend the time locking things down and doing it properly, because if they did, the quality of online education would be through the roof. Completion rates would be through the roof because you'd be able to gate the relevant stages in the process where overwhelm starts to creep in and outcome realisation starts to decrease exponentially.

Speaker 1: 34:01

That's all I have to say about.

Speaker 1: 34:05

Oh and well, I, okay. So, first and foremost, if someone really worked, If you came on my welcome video. First of all, onboarding is a whole separate baby. That is not. There's a lot that's missed, their big missed opportunities happening there, but if you had a proper onboarding process and part of that included you sitting down and being like, listen, we have to have a conversation.

Speaker 1: 34:32

This is gonna piss you off, but here's what's about to happen is, I have made it an intentional decision to make this a progressive curriculum, and I fully understand that you might come into this having some knowledge already that some of this might not be the first time you've ever heard it. However, I'm going to ask you to approach this as a beginner and to keep an open mind and just I want you to understand the my why and my thought process behind the concepts, and I am intentionally making the choice to lock content until it's completed, so you've got a complete one lesson after. If you came and said that to me, I would be like, alright, I have respect for that, but if it was just, yeah, if it was just, if it was just a go for it.

Speaker 2: 35:22

You saw padlocks everywhere on the program except for topic one. I'm out same.

Speaker 1: 35:27

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 35:27

I'm the same with you for sure. The one thing that you said that you could then sprinkle some advanced sorcery on top of is that, if you know that you're going to have so, I think again, audience segmentation via knowledge level is very important. So you know you're dealing with beginners. Set the beginner standard. You do you as the expert, because you're not, we're not doing like college level certification, we're not doing industry certification here on paying for Steve or Adrian's or insert your names expertise here. Therefore, you've earned the privilege to set the standard and the criteria and the prerequisite knowledge to be able to start at stage one, two or three. The advanced sorcery would be you could run a quiz upfront that asks a bunch of questions that, based on the answer, will start them at a particular module of the course based on their knowledge.

Speaker 2: 36:15

So you could pre assess could pre assess to find out. Oh, steve already knows about funnels. Yeah, you can start at the data stage. Steve crashed and burned on all the questions. You need to start at the start and that's a great further way to customize the learning journey. And as soon as you get it right, completion rates will go up, because overwhelm is always waiting to creep in and trash your completion rate overwhelm.

Speaker 1: 36:42

I think that's also a really. Do you know what the Dunning Kruger effect is?

Speaker 2: 36:46

You are. Look to. You said Maslow recently. You said now you're saying the Dunning and Kruger.

Speaker 1: 36:52

Holy shit, I'm not ready for this.

Speaker 2: 36:55

I've heard of it. I couldn't tell you what it is, though, but I can win to long to like look at the look you in the eye and like secretly like Google over here, which I have done during job interviews in the past.

Speaker 1: 37:05

Job interviews. What if you were job interviewing on zoom to be able to do this? So sorry.

Speaker 1: 37:11

So sorry. So if you, if you were to Google it, you would know it, because it's what something that you said is what triggered it. For me, it's that. So people are going, they're going, they're going, they're going, then crash when there's a massive drop off. This typically happens this was stunning, studied by the Dunning and the Kruger and it is essentially that people who have less competence and less information have higher levels of confidence and as they start to increase confidence and increase knowledge and information, all of a sudden there is a drop off point where their confidence plummets. Got it and then it. Then it sort of does a little roller coaster and then eventually it goes back up. And so what happens often is someone comes into a program Tell me, this has ever happened to you.

Speaker 1: 38:06

You come into a program and you're like this is great, we're, it's a party, we're going to learn stuff, we're going to. This is going to work out, my business is going to grow. I'm going to lose all the weight that I wanted to lose. I'm going to do everything that I was promised. It is going to be great. I made the investment, I'm committed to myself. This is going to be amazing.

Speaker 1: 38:20

And then they start to get some of the information. They realized this was harder than I expected. All of a sudden I've got, maybe imposter syndrome starts to kick in, maybe the self doubt, maybe the self deprecation, maybe the old habits are coming. Old habits die hard, are coming back in and all of a sudden crash. That's the Dunning Kruger effect and that's the drop off point for most people in those programs. So, armed with that knowledge, you can also onboard people to let them know we're going to have.

Speaker 1: 38:51

This is good, I'm going to. I'm going to, I'm going to tell the future right now. Hang on, let me put my little where's my crystal ball, let me put my little fortune teller hat on. I'm going to tell you what's probably going to happen, because it's psychology, this is what happens and you explain if this is done. In Kruger effect I have this in almost every one of my programs. I'm 99% positive that you're going to hit a point where you're going to hit the wall. Imposter syndrome is going to kick in. You're going to, you're not going for whatever reason, you're going to freak out or life is going to get in the way and you're going to lose the that love and feeling and wanting to keep going and, and it's just look at me, look at me, go, I'm kicked in.

Speaker 2: 39:30

You're killing it. Whatever, whatever, whatever liquids being consumed, was it some? Lacroix was Pompile Moose? Don't tell me it was Pompile Moose, but it was H2O with your like, remember?

Speaker 1: 39:39

to hydrate, you know you're going to get a giant gallon of water jug and you just let them know that this is what. And once you become more aware of learner behaviors, now here's a whole separate. This is where this is where you go. Okay, adrian did go and I'm going to show you what you do. Actually have I understand you in school for education, because once you start to go down the road of understanding where people's behaviors exist within the way you formatted your learn, your learning experience is this is where you can pop in. If you know that module two video for start, that's the over one point, that's the big drop off point you can. You can say, you can pop up, pop out of nowhere and be like hey, I see 85% of people are going to start to drop off after they watch this. So I just want to remind you and you just you know they're away.

Speaker 2: 40:37

That's, that's my that's my, I'm salivating over this because that's that, that's that would solve. That would solve so many problems. But why? Why don't people do? It is the effort thing again, but it's also they may not know the right data to look at. So this is the beauty and the symphony of data and fix. So the fix is actually not in the data world, it's actually got to do something cool for your audience.

Speaker 2: 41:01

But what you said you'd know when they drop off.

Speaker 2: 41:05

So I would edit if it was a video, because most of the courses that exist out there are the courses that I've grown up building in my career. Different formats, it's video and text video, workbook video, video video. So if it's a video, I would grab it or I'd give it to my video editor and I'd say, splice this in at the intro and it would literally be my hello, just popping in because I've run some data and I know that this is a point that's going to freak people out. So I would actually put it in our would play it up so hard because that's what's happening, right. So you're actually calling out, you're actually addressing the problem before the problem even happens, because you know on the data that they were good just before they start this topic Boom. You could send an email, you could send them a text message, you could leave them a voicemail, you could give them a call, you could do a whole bunch of stuff to mitigate that from happening. And then show your learners that you really give a shit about me.

Speaker 1: 42:00

I've got another idea, if you know that. So module two, video four, is where they tend to drop off. You have a checkpoint video. Module two, video two, video three that's their checkpoint way. If it's a, if it's a large, more more, a higher ticket program Checkpoint, we want you to submit something. We're going to get on a call there's going to be a special call just for that there's going to be. You are required to come to our group coaching call and talk about the homework that you submitted for review or whatever that thing is, so that someone feels more confident in being able to move forward. They have clarity on the way in which to move forward and etc. Etc. Etc.

Speaker 1: 42:44

But, adrian, if you're running a little higher ticket.

Speaker 2: 42:47

But, adrian, I just got told by my coach that I just should be making $100,000 months. I don't have time. I don't have time to give a shit about all this. This sounds like work. This sounds like effort.

Speaker 1: 42:57

Okay, but if you've oh no, do you have more to no, I was just.

Speaker 2: 43:01

I'm just being that. I'm being the people out there that aren't doing this. There's a reason why they're not doing it.

Speaker 1: 43:07

Let me do a, let me, let me, let me dazzle with some math here.

Speaker 2: 43:11

Math it up, baby.

Speaker 1: 43:12

Let me just mess it up. So if you've got, if you've got $1000 program and you sell it to, you sell it to 10 people and you've made $10,000 from that program. Yeah, of those 10 people, two of them complete it 20% completion rate, apparently above average. Well above average, well above average.

Speaker 2: 43:36

For a $10,000 program, though, yeah, that would be okay. Oh no $1,000 program yeah, yeah $1,000 program.

Speaker 1: 43:44

10 people have gone through. You've made $10,000 from it, yep made $10,000.

Speaker 2: 43:48

Two people have completed 20% of it.

Speaker 1: 43:51

Two people have completed it and said all right, that was all right. Maybe half. You have a 50% retention rate and that one person because half of two people, as you get one person out of that is going to go onto your $10,000 thing that you present afterwards. So now you've made $10,000 from the initial, $10,000 from the next, that's 20 grand. Let's say you put a little more intention and effort to switch that to, you get a. What percentage would you wanna switch this to?

Speaker 2: 44:30

I'll let you control it so at $1,000 program at least 50% 50%.

Speaker 1: 44:37

Okay, 50% completion rate. Now half of those people are going to move on. So that's two and a half. Do you wanna round up or down? Go up, let's round up. So three people now. So you've had 10 people go through the initial at $1,000, that's 10 grand. Now three people have chosen to move on with you in your $10,000 program. That's an extra 30. So instead of making 20, now you're making 40.

Speaker 2: 45:03

So you double your money without having to, yeah, without. It's that whole that beautiful thing of data right when you. Massive learning happens with little changes. Little incremental changes can have massive changes.

Speaker 1: 45:15

Now when you change that from 10 people to 100 people have gone through it, now you're adding an extra zero on both of those numbers, except it changes in the front end. So once you start to look at like retention and how because it costs a whole lot less to retain a client than it does to acquire one it starts to see you can see a real upward trajectory very quickly of if you have a 10% completion rate of 100 people have gone through and 10 people and it's the difference of five people joining and you've got 50,000, you've made $50,000 on that higher level program, whereas if you had 100 people go through with a 50% completion rate and that's 50 people and 25% of them convert, now instead of making 50 grand on the upsell, you just made 250 grand on the upsell.

Speaker 2: 46:03

All right, all right, all right.

Speaker 1: 46:05

I mean stop like.

Speaker 2: 46:07

Simmer down, simmer down. Right man, I just what's the matter.

Speaker 1: 46:10

Come on, that's right.

Speaker 2: 46:12

That's cool, that's super.

Speaker 1: 46:14

That's unbelievable.

Speaker 2: 46:16

And the effort's not really like the efforts. The effort's like this illusion of heaps of effort, right, but you know, go into module two, topic four, shoot a two minute video that says, hey, I know what you're thinking, you're probably gonna bail. Now, Don't trust me, don't stay around for this one. And then let's jump on a call. Or hey, submit this work.

Speaker 2: 46:39

That's like that's half a day's worth of work, yeah, and once you've done it, once you've got it, once you've- got your curriculum like you've got your course progression and I'm gonna assume you're the expert so you know who step one through to step 10 for your course. Yeah, how to pimp it and take it to that engaged level. It's not difficult, it's not rocket science, it's not as much effort as you might think, but the impact that it can have.

Speaker 1: 47:04

Crazy not to do it, crazy not to as just demonstrated I'm still laughing that you said stop it right man. Stop it right man, it was too much, it was too much.

Speaker 2: 47:13

What's that movie? Yeah, like, yeah, adrian 47627344. Like, how do?

Speaker 1: 47:19

you know that.

Speaker 2: 47:20

Oh, I read the phone book up to letter H. Oh, okay, Like right man, it's a cool movie, it's a cool movie.

Speaker 1: 47:26

I am that with numbers.

Speaker 2: 47:27

That's awesome If I see a number once.

Speaker 1: 47:29

I know it forever. Anyhow. What else have we?

Speaker 2: 47:31

got? What else have we got? Cause there's, you know there's. You can get real micro on this, right. So if you've got video, like most courses, video next, video next. You can then analyze video and you could look at the engagement rates for video. So they might come steamin' out of the gate for some video and then just disappear halfway through it. What does that tell you? Like so, to get sophisticated like, it's not always, it's not always overwhelmed right, it's not always that they're like oh shit, I'm not smart enough in posture syndrome. It might just be this is too frickin' long, man, I just don't have. I don't have 90 minutes to sit through for this module. Sorry, like I stayed for 30 minutes, I just got fuckin' bored.

Speaker 1: 48:11

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 48:11

Shame on you course. Creator.

Speaker 1: 48:13

That's happening constantly.

Speaker 2: 48:15

Oh my God, because, because learning design is not being incorporated into course creation? It is because the course creation and edgiprenuse sector brace yourself, here it comes has been created by marketers who aren't grounded in the foundations of good learning.

Speaker 2: 48:34

Brace yourself, which then leaves the frickin' mess for us to clean up. But the problem is, all the damage has been done by the marketers who have made a course once and then sold themselves as a course creation consultant. Porterfield, Benny Brunson, like all these kids, you've just made it so hard for the good guys and gals and thems to come in and make this better. I've got to be careful because Aussies have a tendency of like guys is like just a generic thing. Come on, guys, hey, guys, hey.

Speaker 1: 49:04

I appreciate you.

Speaker 2: 49:05

That's for inclusiveness, trying to be super inclusive in this episode so I get invited back again. But yeah, it's so hard for the good people to. We now have to educate why good learning design is important in frickin' learning and courses. Are you kidding me? But it's only because the marketers and the bros have gone and like twisted it all up to say all you need to do is just open up the screen recorder, open up your PowerPoint slides and just talk at someone for four hours.

Speaker 1: 49:35

And the woo side of it is that's yeah, there's the bro side of things. The woo side of it is that someone it is not your responsibility to help someone else be self led and it is a you can have boundary. Your boundaries are such that it is not your responsibility to get someone the result. They're an adult. They should be the ones seeking that result for themselves, and if they don't do that, then you have done your job. I know when Steve gets quiet, I know that there's that, that, that that goes against everything.

Speaker 2: 50:15

If you're creating the course, if you're the creator of the course, if you're the expert, it is your responsibility that your curriculum is built for learners not for you not because you feel like the universe served it to you and like you got your crystals out and Mercury is in retrograde and you're like, oh, oh, whoa. Yeah, I just got this vision that I'm going to make these people do it my way, because you know that's what the backs read. Boys said you know I wanted that away.

Speaker 2: 50:39

No, you got to say that their way they need it their bloody way, the learners way. So you get inside the skulls of your learners who are your clients, who are your prospects, who are your leads, who are your target market and you go. How would you like to consume this knowledge? Guess what? It's going to be very different to the way that you think, so screw you people.

Speaker 1: 51:01

Not all of them.

Speaker 2: 51:04

Those, the practitioners of this, the puppet masters behind it. Yeah, teachers, the teachers of this shit.

Speaker 1: 51:11

Mercury's in retrograde. I said can we digress for just a second? Long enough to say that. I said to Steve. He said how are things? How was your weekend? Now is whatever. And I said I'm in a little funk, I had an existential crisis, I'm just like, I'm just feeling a little off. And he said to me Mercury must be in retrograde. And I said hang on, do you even know what your sign is? And you didn't know what yours. I did.

Speaker 2: 51:38

So where that comes from is so Papa Pauli, who makes appearances in a lot of things that I do?

Speaker 1: 51:44

We do. We have to mention them in every episode. Now His wife.

Speaker 2: 51:47

Bron, his wife Bron, and I joke about that all the time. It's like, it's like, oh, we've just had a shit week at work. What is it? Mercury's in retrograde again. He's blamed the blame, the blame, the planet alignment.

Speaker 1: 52:00

That's, you know, there's, there, there is. If you can't take ownership, if you can't take ownership for your own bad week.

Speaker 2: 52:07

What better way than to blame something millions of miles away?

Speaker 1: 52:12

Maybe there's truth in it, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 52:14

Who knows, who knows.

Speaker 1: 52:15

What else?

Speaker 2: 52:15

we got. This is dude, this has been. This has been fun. I don't know Like I can talk about this stuff quite passionately for a long time and I think, wait, you can.

Speaker 1: 52:25

I wasn't sure.

Speaker 2: 52:26

Yeah, just check it, Just checking in, but I just want to check in with the peeps as well. Is that? You know, hopefully, hopefully. Yeah, there's been some numbers and there might be some like oh, too much numbers, too much math, but I think we've done a really good job of like throttling it back, talking about why you should care, giving examples that are meaningful, giving solutions of how you can get around it, and then like the benefit. I think it's. I think this has been a real banger so far as to like giving the people what they need to hear as well as practical solutions as to what they can do to fix it. So, if they've got it, like if you've got a program, and you want to look and apply this stuff, replay this, grab your reports, check your numbers and then maybe try something. That's the beauty of this stuff. Is that, with data Correct me if I'm wrong data legend is that once you've got it, once you've got it, you can then play with it.

Speaker 1: 53:14

Yeah, and you should. And also give yourself enough grace to you. Don't have to do all of this at once. Like pick the. If you're like wow, there was just so much that was talked about, Pick one thing that seems manageable for you to get better on right now, and do that one thing. If it's hiring someone off Fiverr to incorporate that welcome sequence that's going to check in with people. If that's the one thing you can do to make your course program whatever better right now, I'll speak for me. I won't speak for you. Like I apply for you. I won't speak for me. I won't speak for you.

Speaker 1: 53:53

Like I applaud that effort and then, when you're ready to do the next thing, then we can add the next thing. You don't have to do all this at once. This is not us saying if you don't do all of this, then you're terrible and you're the worst, and no one's ever going to get anything out of this.

Speaker 2: 54:05

This is one of those. If you do one of those things, you'll be in the top 5%. Of course. Create is around, Right, like the fact that you the fact that you're even listening to this and considering it means that you're not one of these charlatans or snake oil salespeople that last few times that we've got together. So well done on just being open to it, right, but the welcome sequence alone.

Speaker 1: 54:28

Very worth it, Very very.

Speaker 2: 54:30

You in the rack, like you'll be you, you'll see, you'll see results. You'll see mad, mad improvement.

Speaker 1: 54:37

And if you would like an example of this. So we have a free thing. By the time this airs, this should be all available. We've got a free. If you, if you would like a better way of using testimonials in your business, go down. It's free. It's a it's a testimonial toolkit. You can get that for free. If you choose to take the next, there will be a little upgrade that comes off the the back end of that. That goes into a it's a whole social selling.

Speaker 2: 55:06

It's a it's a matter of selling.

Speaker 1: 55:09

Social selling, marketing, like it's. It's a pretty solid little, it's pretty solid product that we, that we recorded but you should get I haven't seen any of this, but it's it's. All there to be able to happen is on a. We don't I don't know what we're charging for it Thirty, forty dollars, we're charging for this thing, the follow up that that goes into it and hey, you completed the video. No, you get some. You get some communication like an action.

Speaker 2: 55:36

The benefit of having a learning agency as part of your little Marvel team up like Adrian's just getting like the cream, dollar cream. But yeah, you're going to get you.

Speaker 1: 55:44

finish it, you finish you finish a topic Lucky.

Speaker 2: 55:47

Oh yeah, I'm lucky just to hang out with, to hang out with you for a fourth time, that's, that's pretty, that's pretty sweet, you know cool.

Speaker 1: 55:53

Yeah, you should finish your video.

Speaker 2: 55:55

You get an email to say hey, well done. But we don't like, we haven't stopped there because we like, because we've picked tools and we use. We're using high level in this case. So here you go. If you're interested in some tools, go check it out. High level you can get, get going, but we've just used these tools. That go. Hey, you finish a video. You get an email saying hey, well done on finishing the video. Hey, have you done your homework, which is these action steps? But we can also then run hey, if we haven't, if you haven't logged in for five days, we're going to send you an email. Hey, we notice you haven't logged in and you haven't completed everything. Cool, get the most out of this, please. We love you, boom. So, yeah, here's the button to log in, in case you missed.

Speaker 1: 56:38

I like it. I didn't know that was going to happen.

Speaker 2: 56:41

I mean it's happening.

Speaker 1: 56:42

It's, oh, it's happening.

Speaker 2: 56:44

It's happening.

Speaker 1: 56:45

All right, all right.

Speaker 2: 56:45

All right.

Speaker 1: 56:46

Are we rounding this out with anything? Do you have any questions about the external metric stuff?

Speaker 2: 56:51

I think we need to. I think we need to, just I think we need to introduce it and then probably, I reckon that's a whole, I think that's a whole, it's a whole beast itself, but like super, super high level because obviously, like you know, once they get into the tent it's one and lost, it's one of the lost on curriculum and engagement right.

Speaker 2: 57:11

Does the, does the curriculum deliver on what you say it was going to deliver? Hard, hard and fast, yes or no? And then is there enough engagement that either you give to the learner or the learner feels during your self-directed curriculum that wants them, makes them want to actually keep coming through. So the marketing thing starts again, because you've got to keep them excited and interested throughout your program. But yeah, there's the hard line there You're getting people into the program. It's a whole other, that's a whole lot there. Adventure, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 57:39

Yeah, okay, I know how I want to round this out, since you've said that, because you're you're right. The external metrics, that's probably a whole separate. That's a whole separate beast. Here's the bridge, though. You said something when we were going through the, the initial, the rough draft of just brainstorming our curriculum for what is coming at the end of this year, and I went hang on, we need to explore more of that is can you touch on the difference between outcome versus outcomes?

Speaker 2: 58:12

Yes, I certainly can. And I'm just going to the curriculum on our mirror board, shout out to one of the coolest tools ever is. Yeah, we talked about this whole thing outcomes and outcome, so outcomes. By the end of this curriculum, you will be able to dot dot, dot, so outcomes. This is what we're saying we're going to do.

Speaker 2: 58:36

So remember, I don't know when you did English and you had to learn how to do a presentation and write an essay, it was like you tell them what you're going to tell them, you tell them, and then you told them what you just told them. Like that was like the structure of a basic essay or argumentative piece. But, yeah, outcomes is by the end of this curriculum, by the end of this program, you will blah, blah, blah, blah, and then the outcome is now that the program is over, can you do dot, dot, dot, dot, dot dot. Can you do the outcomes that we told you we were going to give you during the program? Now, if you match so if outcomes equal outcome, you win. If they mismatch, you lose, and you lose in terms of engagement, in terms of lifetime client value, in terms of repeat purchases, in terms of completions of their program, et cetera.

Speaker 2: 59:24

So, yeah, that's how we're looking at that bridge. Yeah, that's a good thing, because the outcomes will be used. They'd be used in your marketing and absolutely they should be. This program aims to do A, b, c, d, but and you said it as well, I can't remember if it was this we've done a lot of content together, so I'll get blurred as to what day and what piece of content we talked about it. But you were saying that you make a habit of asking at the end of some of your programs. Hey, I told you I was going to teach you this.

Speaker 1: 59:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah Did I teach you it.

Speaker 2: 59:55

That is the perfect way to show that in action. Outcomes and outcome. I told you I was going to do this, this, this. Hey, just checking in. You got it. Did you get A? Give me yeses.

Speaker 2: 1:00:08

So if you're doing this live, let's say you're doing a live challenge. Hey, day one's over folks. I told you I was going to give you the five secret source recipes to do this In the chat. Tell me, did I do that? Yes or no? One for yes, zero for no. And if anyone puts in zero, hey, naomi, let's connect offline and I want to make sure I get you two or one. Or hey, what's missing, what's missing, what's missed for you? That's going to get you there. Cool, either spend some more time, reach out offline, do it. That's in a live scenario, in a course scenario. You could send that through via an email, but you've got to act on the ones that say I'm not there yet, because they're the ones that are not getting it and it's your fault, not theirs, that they're not getting it. You could do the work on the curriculum for sure.

Speaker 1: 1:00:52

Yeah, what I was. I think that were. I don't think that was today, but I'm glad you brought that up. Something else I'm doing so I'm running another client event in August and this is I was like I really want to figure out how to make sure we're we are implementing the curriculum as best as humanly possible, and so something I'm adding into her event is so it's going to be three days on, days two and day three.

Speaker 1: 1:01:18

If you don't like, if you weren't able to come to day one or you weren't able to catch the replay of it, there's going to be a 15 minute before day two starts. Just come to the recap, just come to, just come 15 minutes early and we're going to go through everything so that you're all good, you're caught up, you're where you need to be, you're not going to have missed anything. We're going to make sure you get. And if you even if you were there and you just need a nice refraining, like at the beginning of a TV show, when someone says, like last time on Game of Thrones, wow, you like that idea? That was I was like, oh, I'd like this idea. I think that would be fun.

Speaker 2: 1:01:55

That is a bangin' idea. And I think I know the client too that you're going to do it for?

Speaker 1: 1:01:59

Do you know the?

Speaker 2: 1:01:59

client With her audience and the style and point that they're at that.

Speaker 1: 1:02:09

I just got some points for that.

Speaker 2: 1:02:11

You got all the points, but it's nice to see Like it's always good, good for the people listening. You hang out with smart people, man, like you may be the expert in your field, but then you go and hang out with one of your competitors who is also an expert in their field and instead of going like oh, we're competitors, let's be arch nemesis and duel it out and like, try and prove who's it you just learned. Stuff like that is an absolute perfect application of a way to help people not get overwhelmed and ease them in, but also respect their time. We talked about that in a previous recording too Respecting your audience's time by saying, look, you may have been busy. Here's the quick recap. Bam, here's the too long. You know the TLDR. Here's the quick revision. Awesome.

Speaker 1: 1:02:55

Yeah, we're also not competitors, but all right, no, no, no, I'm just saying other people like your coach and a coach get together.

Speaker 2: 1:03:02

They may be competitors life coaches, life coaches but they can learn from each other. Yeah, Marvel, team up, take over the world. Who knows?

Speaker 1: 1:03:09

Well, there should be more Marvel team ups.

Speaker 2: 1:03:12

Should be. There should be and better courses, better quality self-directed courses and programs, and, like everything that we've talked about, that can relate to any type of curriculum delivery. So, whatever your delivery vehicle of your offer whether it be a coaching program, like if you're doing group coaching programs and you've got people that just disappear off the radar do not be like the gyms of the world that just hope that people don't show up to use their gym membership. Reach out and the worst thing that'll happen is they'll cancel, but leaving them in your system for three months to just cop three months of recurring revenue. That's not why you got into business in the first place.

Speaker 2: 1:03:46

I know it's not Cause, if you've listened this far, you're not one of the bros. The bros would have turned off straight away the woos. They're out after we started attacking them with Mercury and retrograde right. So the people that are listening to this, you're not in it. You're not in it for vanity metrics and empty recurring revenue payments. You want your learners, you want your clients to succeed, so don't be afraid to engage with them. If they've disappeared or stopped consuming your content, reach out, cause they'll appreciate it and it may be that they stopped now, but you'll be the first person that they want to get back on the horse with as soon as they're ready or in a better position to take action.

Speaker 1: 1:04:23

Agreed.

Speaker 2: 1:04:24

Don't play the long like you've got to play the long game there for sure.

Speaker 1: 1:04:29

That's it. Play the long game. What a session.

Speaker 2: 1:04:32

That was great Okay 槍.